Endless Space 2 Economic Victory Too Easy
6 years ago
Feb 5, 2017, 2:15:45 PM
Title says it all, every game I've played since the inclusion of all Victory types has ended in an economic victory on or before turn 75 (on Fast.) In my opinion, this is a huge problem that should either be fixed by:
A) increasing the Dust required to win Economic
or
B) decrease the amount of Dust earned/turn generated by planet types or buildings
Has anyone else noticed that this particular victory type is far too easy to attain? Feel free to share your ideas and concerns below!
-Grizz
6 years ago
Feb 7, 2017, 3:20:23 AM
Well, I'll say this once and only once, if this is not addressed come full launch there will absolutely be dozens of threads from people complaining of how easy the economic victory is. I've won another 2 economic victories since I posted this (2 days ago) and it is the ONLY victory I win, and when you realize I'm not even trying to win an economic victory, you will start to see where the problem is generated. Secondly, all 5 of my Economic Victories have came before turn 75 on fast, I don't see how any other victory type could compete with this aside from an all out Craver bum rush.
I highly doubt I'm the only person playing this game, let alone the only one actually completing a full game, so, if someone might help me out and say "I've noticed this victory is easy as well" maybe we can get it fixed before launch comes and I Steamroll the MP lobbies with early game Economic Victories... Trust me, I'm getting faster and faster at it each game, I'm going for the victory within 50 turns this next game.
Updated 6 years ago.
5 years ago
Apr 22, 2017, 2:48:28 PM
Economic victory is way too easy! I agree. On normal pace I've won by turn 108. I barely won a conquest victory the game before. They need to increase the amount of dust, and allowing you to pick which victory is achievable in a game would be great. One of things I like about Galactic Civ 3, it has options in setup which victories are available.
5 years ago
Apr 22, 2017, 3:14:23 PM
IF you are up for it you can make a change to one of the files to make it more difficult. In the Simulations folder of the game folder, make a backup copy of the file, " SimulationDescriptors[Victory].xml " and store it somewhere safe. Now open the file in the Simulations folder. Scroll down and you'll see <Property Name="VictoryEconomyDustThreshold" BaseValue="450000"/> . That's how much dust you have to earn to win. You can change it to no more than "999999". Also if you are playing in fast mode, if you scroll down you will see that the threshold for victory is 75% of base value, which is why it is easier to win. Galaxy size also affects the victory threshold values for a game.
5 years ago
Apr 22, 2017, 3:48:06 PM
In a neighbouring thread it says how difficult the Wonder victory is so looks like there is definitely some balancing that needs doing.
5 years ago
Apr 22, 2017, 8:24:54 PM
As the Lumeris, I'm getting the eco victory warning at turn 100. Wonder isnt as hard as science, science victory takes forever.
5 years ago
Apr 23, 2017, 7:21:20 AM
I've had my relentless purging of the galaxy rudely interrupted by economic victory nearly 100% of the time. The only time I didn'twin an economic victory was... when I didn't finish a full game.
I thought I was the only one. Thank goodness. This needs serious rebalancing.
5 years ago
Apr 23, 2017, 2:47:47 PM
I always turn off the econ victory because it's bullcrap anyway. If you have all that dust you can do something with it and and try to win normally. Now let me brag about my turn 110 science win on normal speed.
5 years ago
Apr 23, 2017, 6:21:25 PM
d0pl wrote:I always turn off the econ victory because it's bullcrap anyway. If you have all that dust you can do something with it and and try to win normally. Now let me brag about my turn 110 science win on normal speed.
I agree. Economic wealth is a latent power that doesn't mean anything if it's not being used. If the USA had simply sat on its huge latent economic power during WW2 instead of converting it to production, the world would be a very different place.
Ideally (although I can't see this happening with release this soon), Economic Victory would be tied to a set of specific goals. Something like maintaining a minimum number of trade routes with other factions for X amount of time. That would give you an incentive to keep other factions alive; the exact opposite of conquest. Or a set of difficult goals towards forming a Galactic Bank (just another form of Wonder, basically). Whatever the design, it should be something you have to specifically aim for, with trade-offs against other victory conditions. And also a clear target to attack (like those trade routes) if you see another faction nearing an Economic Victory. Not something that just happens automatically once you power up enough dust production.
5 years ago
Apr 24, 2017, 9:24:38 AM
This is also a problem in Endless Legend, for this reason whenever I happen across the Roving Clans I immediately start planning how I'm going to destroy them. I agree with those who say the problem is that an economic victory is attained by simply collecting x amount of dust, which is something that most players will achieve simply by playing the game, it doesn't need to be planned for. I posted an idea a while back where I suggested tying economic victory to trade companies. Basically it would be possible to buy other players companies and you win by buying each players starting company. Here is a link for those interested in the full description., Trade Companies and Economic Victory.
Updated 5 years ago.
5 years ago
Apr 24, 2017, 6:03:12 PM
I never win with the Economic Victory!
...Because I turn it off. You're right, it's a stupidly easy (And hollow) way to win. I don't ever focus on winning any way except for annihilation, and even I was getting mystery wins from the Economic one.
5 years ago
Apr 26, 2017, 8:55:53 AM
I've had to turn it off when I'm not playing Lumeris. Funny one is as UE or Riftborn, with the Ind base law, I would win eco before the victory wonders could be built.
5 years ago
Apr 26, 2017, 10:10:01 AM
This picture should sum it up pretty well why Economy victory is so easy. And yes, I had similar exponential curves in industry and science aswell, just not so sharp. The problem is that Trade is incredible Over Powered as it grows. At the end of the game I was having around 60k dust income, with the income doubling in around last 10 turns. If you get a fast start with Luneris, it can be even more insane. Not to mention if the AI would prioritise making trade routes aswell so that th trade deal would be of any use...
Here is the trade explosion in the same game. I propably got more science from trade in the end than from systems...
Updated 5 years ago.
5 years ago
Apr 27, 2017, 5:28:59 PM
Victories need some balance, I think that will happen sooner or later. I also turn it off, is ridiculous in current state.
5 years ago
Jun 8, 2017, 5:34:34 PM
Yesterday I earned my first victory in ES2. It was economic victory. According to steam global statistics most players get economic victory - 6,6%. Science victory -3,1%. Conquest victory - 2,3%. Wonder victory - 1,9%. Supremacy victory - 1,5%. Score victory - 0,8%. Victory through elimination - 0,6%. I agree that some victories should be harder to get than the others but economic one is just way too easy.
5 years ago
Jun 11, 2017, 11:25:18 PM
+1
I was playing as the unfallen, Around turn 100 I had the notification that I'm getting close to an economic victory with 10 systems. I didn't focus on it at all, just built my Trade HQ-s and built every system development possible (but that's something I always do no matter what my goals are).
Also, when I'm more aggressive and I focus a lot more on military (therefore I'm not able to build so many system developments) Unfallen AI get an economic victory 50% of the games.
And I agree with the fact that Wonder victory is very hard to achieve. You need to get to the end of the left tree, research the quadrinix and Orichalchix tech, mine 50 of them and build 5 Obelisks. This is just too much. If you're not science-crazy then you won't get those final techs. In ES1, I'm always able to max out my tech tree fairly quickly.
5 years ago
Jun 11, 2017, 11:56:24 PM
I doubt it is that easy anymore
5 years ago
Jun 12, 2017, 10:25:39 AM
I just finished my first playthrough on Endless difficulty after going faction by faction, each time increasing difficulty level. And here are some fun facts:
- Most of the games ended up with economic victory. Often unwanted and uncontrolled. Any faction that builds trade compaines just as part of their all-round development ends up with tons of dust, despite only Lumeris are supposed to be that good at trading. It was often my way to go at the point when I took dominant position just to finish faster.
- I haven't lost any game in this streak, each time playing new faction and higher difficulty. With like 1-2 times per game taking 1 turn back (usually just because being initially unsure on how it will play out). Modesty aside, I'm very good at TBS, but it should not be that easy. Part of the problem is economic victory. I think I wouldn't win Endless difficulty if not going straight for it. But again, rival factions were also headed that way. Even though that might've not be the plan. Other point is that only Endless difficulty actually ended up as a victory race. Other difficulty levels were won after 80 or so turns, it was all about securing victory since then. And economic victory often was just the quickest way to go, not the source of dominance. So my guess is that difficulty levels are unbalanced: having so many of them and failing to deliver a challenge is... well disappointing at least.
- Game time is way off the scale. Normal game is supposed to last 200 turns, or somewhat shorter if you head for particular type of victory. However in my experience most of games were finished before turn 150. In my endless difficulty game first "close to victory" message appeared around turn 90. And I won at 121th turn. Again economic victory is a problem. But not only it. Dominant factions in that game (Cravers and Riftborn) were also headed towards it. However they were not using trading companies at all! That's kind of insane, but Cravers were set to win at ~135th turn, judging by the graph. Without trading. Main complaints here are that: victory often can be achieved at mid-game stage, without the need of advanced tech; difficulty levels are boosting AI instead of nerfing player, skewing the time scale of the game. I really think AI progress should be used as calibration tool: average AI should be finishing the game at that expected game time duration. On any difficulty level. It should be difficult for player to keep up the pace, not that AI just finishes earlier than you would in theory get to any high-tech. I remember well Endless Legend gameplay, where victory race usually started in the late game, and I really miss that here.
- Trade compaines are broken. There are 4 vectors that affect the performance, making your dust scale exponentially. These are: number of trading companies, level of companies, number of transports and trade value of systems. All those things help scaling each other. My guess is that something should be removed from the equation, like the level of trading compaines. Or at least capped. Also transports now have growing costs, but in my opinion extra transport should apply diminishing returns. After all you don't have infinite number of goods to ferry. They could also have a maintenance cost, so that if you build too many of them your profits will start to decrease. That can make individual transport cost all the same, like in reality. This will allow Lumeris to build more of them just because they generate more luxuries, for example. Also trading companies tend to generate luxuries out of thin air. I was playing as Lumeris and had abundance of Bluecap Mold, and my 6 trading companies of 10+ level generated around 700 of it per turn. It seems absurd in any sense. Again this mechanics asks for diminishing returns where whatever you do you are getting close to 2x production but never actually reach that.
- Currently market is not connected to economic victory. What?! Any operations on the market don't contribute to your dust score. That doesn't feel right at all. I really expect market trading and manipulation to be part of economic victory. Contributing probably as much as 1/3 to it. On par with population/improvements dust generation and trading companies. Also if we look from this angle it might seem better to make economic victory to be the total accumulated dust, rather than generated. This way applying military pressure would actually make you spend some and will impede your progress.
- Side effect of my 700/turn bluecaps, that i mentioned above, was that I broke the market. I filled it up to it's limit of 5000 bluecaps and continued selling. Also I hit low limit on price, but it was still muliplied by inflation. And that allowed me to generate something like 80k dust per turn for selling those bluecaps.
- Trading companies are not supporting your specialization. I'd expect Sophons to use them for getting more science, Lumeris for getting more dust, and rest for covering holes in dust/science/luxury production.
- Strategic resources seem to be kind of unbalanced. First thing is that level 4 improvements and modules mostly require antimatter and adamantine. Which you can obtain mostly by mining it yourself. As exploration quantities are abysmal, quest/achievement bonuses are not reliable, AI won't easily part with it via diplomatic means... all of that is kind of expected. However what is not expected is that it won't be available on market. Titanium and hyperium are available as pass-through techs. I.e. you study them and start mining before you actually start using them. And that works like a charm. But rest of stategics become available when you already need them. You got to 4th tech level and want to surprize your rivals with fancy new tech? Forget it, you have to study two other 4lvl techs before you can even start getting reasonable quantities of adamantine and antimatter. And because this is the case for all players, those resources very rarely appear on the market, being in constant demand. Not even mentioning top tier resources. So far I've never built any quad/ori weapon. Game usually ends around the point when you just started mining those resources. It feels like reducing tech level for mining high-tech resources by 1 could help improve market situation and make those late-game techs more viable. Ofcourse situation can improve a bit when economic victory TM becomes less of a problem.
5 years ago
Jun 12, 2017, 2:54:48 PM
Xeryx wrote:I doubt it is that easy anymore
Until they fix endgame trade routes, the best option is to turn Economic victory condition off in the game settings.
Even then. I feel all the victories come really fast once you reach Era 5 techs.
5 years ago
Jun 12, 2017, 10:59:22 PM
100% agree with everything Tertium said. There's plenty of balance issues, but the ridiculous trade routes are easily the worst offender of them all. Pretty much all my default speed, default map size Endless difficulty games consistently end on turn 100-120 (meaning before the Academy endgame competitive quest even triggers) with any of the non-militaristic victory conditions, especially Economic. Trade routes start out rather slow, but once they get going you'll be easily hitting tens of thousands of Dust per turn (or in my last Lumeris game over 100k / turn) and ridiculous amount of luxury resources even without luxury resource freighter specialization, to the point you'll be hitting 999 cap every two turns.
Explosive mid-late game trade route income growth needs to be nuked hard and Wonder and Scientific victory conditions need to be made more difficult as well to ensure overall longer games and a larger time frame for using other endgame toys like planet destroyers, last tier luxury and strategic resources or pretty much every single last tech tier building.
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